DGT Centaur Adaptive Play

[fourthirty]

I propose a new thread to discuss the Adaptive Play element of the DGT Centaur. IMHO, this is a somewhat unique feature that warrants a dedicated discussion, without the distraction of debates over the LED light rings, the open back, or the slippery pieces.

I was initially under the impression that the Centaur does not use any historical information from previous games to influence the play on future games.

However, according to Benny:
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"All played games influence the future play of the Centaur. While you play a game, you can turn off the Centaur and continue the game later. The part of the manual just says, that you cannot continue a running game, if you bring all pieces to the starting position. That is all!

DGT invests a lot of time to create the adaptive play. There are two parts. The adaptive algorithm in a running game and the adaptive adjusting of the games in the past. The Centaur checks, what opening-lines are played in the past and how much success you had with it. How good you know the Theory and more. I have all these information from DGT and if you know something about phyton you can check the code of the files on the sd-card.

The Centaur plays a wide range of opening-lines and challange you with different ideas in the games. For example: Last Saturday, the Woman FIDE Master Anita Just played two games with white against the friendliy mode. She started with the following line:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. O-O Sxe4

She drew this game and in the second game the Centaur played the same opening, but a different line:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. O-O dxc3

I have to say, that she was playing against my Centaur and many different people are playing with it. So it is not possible for the Centaur, to create a personal profile of the human-player. But this is not important. After hundreds of games it was the first time, that a human-player played the Italian with White against this Centaur. The Centaur will remember the games and how good/bad the human played them.

Now to the adaptive mode in a running game. The Centaur give you from beginning on chances. These chances have different levels. Some are tactical and some are positional. Some you will see and some you will not see. It depends on your strength. If the Centaur gives you the chance, to win a pawn with a Knightfork, then the Centaur understands, that you're not an absolute beginner. If the Centaur gives you a positional chance, where the difficult to see it is 2300 ELO, then the Centaur understands, that you are a strong player, if you find it. On this base, the Centaur adjusts his level of play.

Different Grandmasters played with my Centaur and while my girlfriend get on this Centaur in the Friendly-Level the Chance to win a piece in one move, the Grandmasters does not get easy chances like this. They got Chances on their level. Against Grandmasters there are sometimes the whole game very difficult chances. If the Centaur sees, that you make no mistakes and the game running into a prossible draw, then it will give you a more or less difficult chance to transpose the game in a winning endgame.

The Centaur creates in every game exercises for the player with different levels of difficulties. It remembers, how good the player was in past games.

Now, what happens, if a 2400 rated player plays a game after a 1000 rated player? The Centaur will maybe start with a strange opening, because of the last games, but it compares the rating of the played moves in a running game with the stockfish-rating of the moves.So it sees very good, that there is no longer a 1000 rated player playing the actual game and adjusts his level on it. The Centaur is searching in all games for possible positional and tactical excercises and if there is the chance in a position to give you an excercise, then it will give you the chance.

This is just a short overview, how the adaptive adjustment works. There are many more parameters and I could write a whole book about it. But this is only for a small number of customers important to know. Like most people just want to drive a car and dont need to know, how the engine works in detail, most customers of the Centaur just want to play intersting games and don't wanne know, how the Centaur find his moves and plans.

The result shows, that a 1000 rated player is happy with the games he plays against the Centaur and the 2400 rated player is also happy. Both play on the Friendly-Level and have fun.

If you let the Centaur play against engines like Stockfish, Komodo, etc., you'll get games like the games of MV.

Many Grandmasters and low level players played against the Centaur and I checked the profile of the games. Also Komodo and other Engines played against the Centaur and I have these profiles too. The profiles of the MV-games are identicly with the profiles of the Engine vs. Centaur games. The profiles of a human player (Grandmasters, Clubplayers, etc.) are very different to the profiles of games played by engines against the Centaur.

I know how it looks like, if an engine plays against the Centaur.

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While I'm pleased to hear that the Centaur adjusts it's strength as a result of historical games, I really don't understand why DGT didn't implement a "guest mode", similar to my Shredder iOS applications. If I own the Centaur and invest the time to play many games against it, then theoretically the Centaur has been "tuned" to play against me. Now, if I allow someone else to play a game (either a highly rated player or a novice), or I play a M2M match, this will tamper with the rating. In the example above where Benny states a 2400 rated player plays a game following a 1000 rated player - the Centaur initially plays weak and then adapts to play strong later? This is not how a "human" opponent plays, so it completely throws out DGT's claim that it plays "in a very human way".

I really don't understand why DGT would not understand this concern and add a guest mode, or even better, player profiles. After all - are they assuming that the computer will ONLY be used by a single individual?

Then the question - if previous games affect the strength/rating, now many games does it take to wipe out guest influence? My time is valuable - I don't want to waste my time playing 3, or 5, or 10 games against a Centaur that has been biased due to guests playing on my computer. I want it to play at my level that I have invested the time to tune. I hope that DGT clarifies this in their upcoming FAQs.

Ch-ch-changes, There's gonna have to be a different man, Time may change me regards...
Greg

[Rob Appleby]

Boring. Time for someone to output a new computer called the Mentaur.

[chesspcmac]

Imagine I find Magnus Carlsen in the airport and I ask him if we can play a chess game. He answers "yes, but Im going to adapt my game to the way you play" "If you play bad I play bad, in that way you will have a chance of beating me". I would tell Magnus...No but thank you. This is how I feel about adaptive play.
I prefer two options: I either play a computer that matches my rating or I use my revelation II and give myself a rook/knight/bishop advantage. In that way the computer is always playing at its best. And if I beat it I feel good even if I got a piece odds.


Little proud ...regards

Mike

[Sargon1972]

Hello All ,

First of all , i will make clear that i do not write here only to critisise the Centaur
Only what i found ore can be better

Also a Question :
Well Benny u did write a splendid comment on the "Testers" of Millennium
On your site...

Why did u not found below things as a proffesional??

When u did give the Centaur white and the games is ended u swap colour then u have to do this 2x because first time the white pieces are still above in the display

U can not interfear the thinking process to make the Centaur move
The levels are only max time ,also not a 40/120 game ,ore 5 -30 sec a move etc.ore Fun level ,mat search
If the Centaur plays 90 min game vs other computer 40/120 then it takes for the entire game max 40 min+-
Analyse level if u press ? button u will not see the thinking trees of the variation,score etc.
Also in normal game after a move u will only see score ,when the Centaur thinks ,no score /move he want to play ore thinkingtree of moves depth etc.
Of course sound is on ,but if the Centaur makes a moves u hear no sound of the move ore announcement
Draw...after only 5x!! the same position the Centaur finally say it is draw
This is so far mine thinking ,impressium of the Centaur ,if u ask me DGT did not good there homework
I hope they will come with a free software update for fixing all problems

Kr,Hans

[Schachspieler]

Kr,Hans

I'm tired of answering the same questions over and over again. The DGT Centaur meets the needs of the market and is a bestseller. I myself wrote that I would like to have this and that feature, but these are my personal wishes.

If someone writes that he does not understand why you should buy the DGT Centaur, that person confirms my statements to these people. DGT develops products for a large market and not for a few collectors.

Each of us can tell that most of the collectors are not real chess players. These people then write that they do not know how to learn chess with the DGT Centaur.

A saying goes: The impotent denies the existence of sex.

It is unprofessional to rate a product solely for the things it does not offer.
If anyone thinks he can do nothing with the DGT Centaur, then that's his opinion. This opinion is legitimate. But to think that one's own opinion applies to all chessplayers is presumptuous and far from any reality.

From hundreds of sold DGT Centaur I have exactly two returns. At the Millennium Exclusive I have at least two returns per 10 sold devices. That does not mean that the Millennium Exclusive is a bad chess computer. He just addresses a smaller market. In fact, the collector's market. No collector is forced to buy the DGT Centaur. If a collector objectively criticizes the DGT Centaur, that is perfectly fine. But when collectors start to fake pictures and games to reinforce the view that the DGT Centaur is a bad chesscomputer, it says a lot about the character of some collectors.

A collector from Nuremberg has played two games online against the DGT Centaur and published these games with condescending comments. Of course, "he" won both games against DGT Centaur in Challanging mode. The playing ability of a chessplayer can be estimated very well, if one reads his annotated games. I offered this chess player to play 5 games in my chess center against the DGT Centaur on the level "Challanging". If he wins a single game, he will get 1000,-€ from me.

In response, I got nothing more than excuses.

I hope you understand that I will only answer serious questions about the Centaur and will not go into provocative nonsense anymore. Chess collectors disqualified in the .INFO forum will be ignored anyway.

Benny

[Sargon1972]

Hello Benny ,

Well i play chess to myself ...i was/am not a bad player i think...

"I offered this chess player to play 5 games in my chess center against the DGT Centaur on the level "Challanging". If he wins a single game, he will get 1000,-€ from me"

Does it coun,t also for me this offer ?

But regarding to the Centaur ,come on ,u must agree with me that some features are missing on it wich are also important to somebody who buy a chess computer who are not collectors ore so

Kr,Hans

[Schachspieler]

Kr,Hans

Hello Hans,

I respect your work and the time you are in your hobby. I also like to look at your results, the games and also the tables. Nevertheless, I have no interest in any communication with you and you know for sure why.

Thank you

Benny

[Sargon1972]

Hello Benny ,

Ok tell me why then ? because now i am curious ??

What the heck i did to u ,ore write about u?

Kr,Hans

[Steve B]

Hello Benny ,

Ok tell me why then ? because now i am curious ??

What the heck i did to u ,ore write about u?

Kr,Hans

guys
please continue this personal conversation by PM or via E-mail

Public Forum Regards
Steve

[Steve B]

I have asked not to continue this conversation here on the board
as a result i have deleted all replies regarding it

Moderating Regards
Steve

[Schachspieler]

I have asked not to continue this conversation here on the board
as a result i have deleted all replies regarding it

Moderating Regards
Steve

I was writing my post while you published your order. Just delete all Off-Topic posts. I am ok with it.

[Steve B]

I have asked not to continue this conversation here on the board
as a result i have deleted all replies regarding it

Moderating Regards
Steve

I was writing my post while you published your order. Just delete all Off-Topic posts. I am ok with it.

Thanks Benny for your cooperation

Deleting Regards
Steve

[Steve B]

i deleted another series of posts which are nothing more than a continuation of personal disputes, attacks
another post contained profanity

i am not going to sit here all day deleting these childish immature posts

the next member who posts like this after i have asked not to ruin yet another Centaur thread will be given a free months vacation from the Hiarcs forum all expenses paid

You Have Been Warned Regards
Steve

[fdimeglio]

Thank you Steve for doing that. I agree this ***needs*** to stop.

Fabrice

[fourthirty]

Thank you Steve for doing that. I agree this ***needs*** to stop.

Fabrice

Agreed. Thank you Steve.

At least I received one on-topic response from Mike above. I sincerely believed that the adaptive aspect of this computer would generate an interesting discussion.

I’m actually looking forward to playing some games against the Centaur to see how DGT implemented this. Unfortunately I didn’t make the Group 1 preorder cut from Chess House.

Waiting room regards,
Greg