ICT 9 - Leiden 2009 - Hiarcs Wins!

[Steve B]

Despite only a small number of entries. I think mainly due to the dates being so close to the WCCC in Pamplona this tournament will go ahead. As always there is a Users tournament alongside the main event. This year the Computers used will have a maximum ELO of 1700. I am sure Steve can let us know what might fit into this category. One interesting entrant will be the The Rybka Operator Hans van der Zijden with his own program called 'Gadget'

aaah yes...the "Users" section of the Leiden tournament
better known as the Gebroikers section (in Dutch)
there are very many dedicated computers with an ELO of <1700 so there is no telling which computers will show up

Sadly ..only a few weeks ago a great Dutch collector of the old computers
...Tom Luif...passed away...i have heard rumors that perhaps this years event might pay tribute to Tom..not certain about that.. but it was mentioned to me as a possibility by another collector

Toms web site..

http://www.xs4all.nl/~tluif/chescom/Eng ... #collectie

Solemn Regards
Steve

[IA]

One machine perfect that has this level of 1700 Elos is the Novag Super Vip, this machine has an excellent game and is very competed.

http://www.ismenio.com/chess_novag_super_vip.html

Regards …

[Harvey Williamson]

So far only 7 entries in the main tournament Hiarcs Diep and Ktulu the top players. I hope the list will grow. It seems that although Rybka and Sjeng do not enter there is a proposed Cluster match Sjeng v Rybka - personally I do not see the point and see this as an attempt to undermine the main tournament and all the hard work of the volunteers who run the CSVN.

Sadly the small number of entries I think is largely due to the unavoidable clash with the dates of the WCCC. But if, a few, others do not enter because they fear a hardware limit and claim it handicaps them that is their loss.

[turbojuice1122]

So far only 7 entries in the main tournament Hiarcs Diep and Ktulu the top players. I hope the list will grow. It seems that although Rybka and Sjeng do not enter there is a proposed Cluster match Sjeng v Rybka - personally I do not see the point and see this as an attempt to undermine the main tournament and all the hard work of the volunteers who run the CSVN.

Sadly the small number of entries I think is largely due to the unavoidable clash with the dates of the WCCC. But if, a few, others do not enter because they fear a hardware limit and claim it handicaps them that is their loss.

Both tournament and match will be interesting.

[Ted Summers]

So far only 7 entries in the main tournament Hiarcs Diep and Ktulu the top players. I hope the list will grow. It seems that although Rybka and Sjeng do not enter there is a proposed Cluster match Sjeng v Rybka - personally I do not see the point and see this as an attempt to undermine the main tournament and all the hard work of the volunteers who run the CSVN.

Sadly the small number of entries I think is largely due to the unavoidable clash with the dates of the WCCC. But if, a few, others do not enter because they fear a hardware limit and claim it handicaps them that is their loss.

I agree with Harvey on this one. If they want a Match why not host it by themselves if they are not going to play in the event? Still both events would be interesting, but I see no reason they should play on the sames dates and at the same event if they are not participants in the main event.

[Steve B]

So far only 7 entries in the main tournament Hiarcs Diep and Ktulu the top players. I hope the list will grow. It seems that although Rybka and Sjeng do not enter......

the cluster side show aside...
i wonder why Rybka is skipping this years event?
Leiden is one of the Premiere CC events in the yearly tournament calendar

perhaps it was a bit shaken by the two draws it was forced to concede to Hiarcs and Shredder at the WCCC?

Hmmmm Regards
Steve

[turbojuice1122]

I think that the simplest explanation is the correct one here. With a tournament not being given the (arbitrary?) name "world championship" also having a hardware handicap, there isn't much reason to enter something that would not be so interesting. From the perspective of those who have worked hard on developing techniques to improve hardware and take advantage of this improvement, the legitimate events would be those without such ridiculous handicaps, so they will have a very interesting match.

Of course, those involved would know a lot more than I would about this, but there have been no public indications that I have seen that this match would take place at the venue itself. If it did, then obviously it would be separate from the actual Leiden event because the sponsors would not recognize the match, so there would be no real problem.

I still think that the Hiarcs team needs to get together a cluster and create a version that could utilize this hardware and have a match against the Rybka team over Playchess. I think that I've been screaming for variations of this theme for much over a year now...

[Harvey Williamson]

I think that the simplest explanation is the correct one here. With a tournament not being given the (arbitrary?) name "world championship" also having a hardware handicap, there isn't much reason to enter something that would not be so interesting. From the perspective of those who have worked hard on developing techniques to improve hardware and take advantage of this improvement, the legitimate events would be those without such ridiculous handicaps, so they will have a very interesting match.

Of course, those involved would know a lot more than I would about this, but there have been no public indications that I have seen that this match would take place at the venue itself. If it did, then obviously it would be separate from the actual Leiden event because the sponsors would not recognize the match, so there would be no real problem.

I still think that the Hiarcs team needs to get together a cluster and create a version that could utilize this hardware and have a match against the Rybka team over Playchess. I think that I've been screaming for variations of this theme for much over a year now...

I do not think it would make any sense to neglect our customers and work on a Cluster version. We have versions for PC, Mac, Palm, PPC, & iphone. Updating these and fixing bugs for customers is far more important than playing with a Cluster.

[turbojuice1122]

In many cases, isn't working on a version that works on a cluster simply a good long-term investment? Of course, no special work was needed for some of the programs out there, so if such work is needed, one could consider that to be something that handicaps the program, particularly since machines with very high numbers of cores will be on the market within a couple of years.

[Harvey Williamson]

In many cases, isn't working on a version that works on a cluster simply a good long-term investment? Of course, no special work was needed for some of the programs out there, so if such work is needed, one could consider that to be something that handicaps the program, particularly since machines with very high numbers of cores will be on the market within a couple of years.

It makes 0 commercial sense to work on this. I guess Vas can get away with working on his cluster rather than fixing bugs that are over a year old. I doubt any other serious Commercial author could at the moment.

[Watchman]

Every time I hear this word "handicap" from someone... well it's nigh revolting and it smacks of an attitude of poor sportsmanship. This talk of handicap is utter nonsense.

If there is any handicap it is self-imposed: Vas & Lukas (e.g.) pursued cluster development over MP development. They attempted a little innovation and were caught flat-footed by a tournament rule change. That is no one's fault but their own.

KOE (King of Engines) was run this year with a 4 core restriction. I didn't like having to take a $1600 cpu offline and not getting to see how Sjeng would perform in a tournament on all 8 cylinders. But no one knew how I felt (until this moment) because I wasn't about to piss and moan about something I could do nothing about. I wanted to participate, so I accepted the rule change... period. And "despite" the restriction, we did have a very interesting tournament.

Would it have been more interesting to have KOE with unlimited hardware? How could it be when you know what the result will be? Sure can be interesting to see Zap play on an unknown amount of cores (who the heck really knows how many cores besides Suj)... but that can be seen "anytime" on Playchess. But even then it loses much of its appeal as you don't see evals or know the actual hardware.

Several years ago when I was an elo-dieb at Playchess, it was quite fun to have Top-Tier hardware running Rybka and break 3000. And I think that is fine for anyone who wants to do that. However, if I was Tournament Director (or sponsor) I don't see how this, having such a large range in hardware capability, helps promote Computer Chess, makes things “more interesting” or decides which Engine really stands as King.

[gerold]

So far only 7 entries in the main tournament Hiarcs Diep and Ktulu the top players. I hope the list will grow. It seems that although Rybka and Sjeng do not enter there is a proposed Cluster match Sjeng v Rybka - personally I do not see the point and see this as an attempt to undermine the main tournament and all the hard work of the volunteers who run the CSVN.

Sadly the small number of entries I think is largely due to the unavoidable clash with the dates of the WCCC. But if, a few, others do not enter because they fear a hardware limit and claim it handicaps them that is their loss.

Be looking forward to this match.
I don't know if they are trying to undermine it or not. I think it will
be interesting for both to be there. It will create more fans for the
events.

Good Luck,

Gerold.

P.S. I do like the idea of the handicaps.
To me it gives a good idea of who has
the strongest program.

[Watchman]

Every time I hear this word "handicap" from someone...

P.S. I do like the idea of the handicaps.
To me it gives a good idea of who has
the strongest program.

Ok let me re-phrase / clarify what I mean... not "every time" I hear it. I think the way Gerold says "handicap" he could also the word "restriction." Not trying to put words in your mouth Gerold... this is just how I perceive your meaning. And even if you do really mean handicap... k fine glad to see your opinion here.

My frustration with the use of this word... it has been used over and over by bellyachers in the Rybka Forum that somehow feel they are being targeted and cheated; it seems to always have a negative connotation associated with it.

If the ICGA ruled that they could use only an 8 core system max AND Rybka must set in the engine params "UCI_LimitStrength" to such and such elo... ok sure that's a handicap and I might even join in their chorus of crying. But that is not what has happened. Everyone had the same restriction placed on them. Heck... Rybka could have used a cluster (k an 8 core one but still...) however they chose not to keep abreast of ICGA rulings.

[turbojuice1122]

Everyone had the same restriction placed on them. Heck... Rybka could have used a cluster (k an 8 core one but still...) however they chose not to keep abreast of ICGA rulings.

What?! They knew about this as soon as it occurred, and it sparked outrage immediately. Also, you seem to have an extremely short memory: Rybka won the handicap event, too.

If there is any handicap it is self-imposed: Vas & Lukas (e.g.) pursued cluster development over MP development. They attempted a little innovation and were caught flat-footed by a tournament rule change. That is no one's fault but their own.

Sorry, but this is garbage. Rybka 3 can use all eight cores of an octacore just as well as Zappa (at least, any differences are negligible now, quite unlike versions before Rybka 3). There is no more MP improvement to attain that would be useful within the current rule limits anyway.

The use of the word "handicap" is meant as a joke to parody the fact that the ruling is stupid and takes away from the computer innovation and "levels the playing field" for those who do not have the necessary innovations that will be standard in a few years.

[Watchman]

Everyone had the same restriction placed on them. Heck... Rybka could have used a cluster (k an 8 core one but still...) however they chose not to keep abreast of ICGA rulings.

What?! They knew about this as soon as it occurred, and it sparked outrage immediately.

Aha... I see... that is why I see things like Lukas saying: So, why did nobody tell us?
We would have used a small cluster of 2 4.2 GHz Nehalem quads, and I could have saved €4000.

Also, you seem to have an extremely short memory: Rybka won the handicap event, too.

So what? What is your point? Well?

Rybka 3 can use all eight cores of an octacore just as well as Zappa (at least, any differences are negligible now, quite unlike versions before Rybka 3). There is no more MP improvement to attain that would be useful within the current rule limits anyway.

Wow Turbo I am impressed... you speak as if you are Vas himself. Tell me tho (since you are not Vas and there is a chance you are just regurgitating his words) you own an Octa? Please tell me you do. And tell me you have been using Zappa for the last year+ on this octa and R3 on it since its release. Sounds to me you are quite the programming expert (with first-hand knowledge of the code) and work as a beta tester.

The use of the word "handicap" is meant as a joke to parody the fact that the ruling is stupid

It's no joke to hear your incessant whining about it. Btw... who taught you to debate? To employ an impotent attack like "it's stupid" is unimaginative and demonstrates absolutely zilch in the critical thinking department.

and takes away from the computer innovation

Wow you went against the party line here. Vas certainly doesn't think so: "No tournament rule is going to stifle cluster development"

and "levels the playing field" for those who do not have the necessary innovations that will be standard in a few years.

I have already said "levels the playing field" is a good thing for these tourneys.

But your vision of this (cluster) innovation becoming a standard? First let me do an "I Dream of Jeanie Boing" so that all PCs have attained the highly prized (and long sought for) status of "appliance." Ok, What application(s) for the home user do you envision benefiting from this technology?